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Is John 16:7-14 Referencing the Holy Spirit or Muhammad Part Two? January 23, 2010

Posted by theconfessors in Apologetics, Bible, Biblical Studies, Christianity, God, Islam, Muhammad, Religion.
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Anyone who’s been on the page in the last few weeks has probably read the ongoing debate between Shajahan and us. Shajahan has written a new post that sort of counters our position in this debate process; expounding on what he believes to be the problem with our logic. However, anyone looking at this from a neutral and logical perspective should see that the logical error does indeed fall with Shajahan. An outline of his argument appears as so: (1) The Comforter is more fitting if it were Muhammad (2) 1 John shows that spirits are the same as prophets (3) The Holy Spirit is already here by quoting Luke 1, so it makes no sense to send him (4) The Holy Spirit does not fit as a “guide” as John says The Comforter will be (5) Muhammad is clearly a more affective guide by receiving and teaching the Qur’an and its rules for living (6) Therefore Muhammad is The Comforter.

Right off the bat one should be able to spot the fallacy of “begging the question” in his argument, by assuming that Muhammad is the only one fitting of the title of The Comforter and guide. In premise (5) he states that, “the Qur’an is enough evidence to support this statement,” well no it’s not for two reasons: (i) If one doesn’t believe in the Qur’an, they don’t just accept it because Shajahan says so and (ii) this begs the question and would require support to back up the claim as to why we should take the Qur’an at its word; option (ii) obviously turns this deliberation into an even longer one. (iii) Since others can fit a title of guide there’s no reason to jump to the conclusion that its Muhammad, i.e. Martin L. King Jr. guided the civil rights movement and inspired millions, Billy Graham has inspired millions to turn to God, the Dali Lama guides millions of his followers, and the list of “guides” could go on and on. For obvious reasons one needs to turn to the text to determine the characteristics of the guide. So to assume Muhammad here simply commits fallacy that needs to be resolved.

Premise (2), under his interpretation, indicates that prophets and spirits are one in the same. Well certainly in some ways because under Christian thought, prophets get their powers by one of two sources: if they’re false prophets, they’re saturated by a false spirit(s) and if they’re a true prophet of God, they get their revelations by the Spirit of God (as seen in the prophets of God in the Old Testament). We’re willing to grant him this because it’s a matter of Christian theology and semantics; it also doesn’t do much towards the conclusion, but raise the possibility that when it says “Spirit of Truth” in John, it could possibly be a prophet.

Premise (3) falls apart once the text is examined. For in John 14:17 it is already acknowledged that The Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, which is later identified as the Holy Spirit in John 14:26, is present and known by the disciples. It seems clear that in John 14:17b, that the Holy Spirit will have a change of presence.

On his latest blog, which this is mostly a response to, he makes the point that he shouldn’t have to prove the Scriptures because The Confessors are Christian and thus should accept this, Amen brother! So we do accept this, which is why to counter all his points, we quote John 14: 26; this identifies The Comforter as the Holy Spirit. This would also mean the Spirit of Truth (which is a term only used by John as so) is the Holy Spirit as well. Now here’s where the logic problem comes in, if he continues to assume, for the sake of the argument, that he does not have to prove the Bible because it is accepted as is by Christians, he must abandon his position, as John 14:26 identifies The Comforter as the Holy Spirit. With this verse so specific he has only three positions he can take, (i) he cannot maintain his position that The Comforter = Muhammad because we see clearly that it isn’t as the author states. (ii) The only honest conclusion he could make is that John (or the Bible) is too untrustworthy to make any sort of conclusions, in which this isn’t the debate, although we could debate on the Bibles cohesion later. (iii) He no longer for the sake of the argument assumes we can take the Bible as so, but then needs to prove why we should take the verses he uses to quote to back up his position, yet why we should not take those that hinder his position, like John 14.

So to summarize, first some of his premises beg the question to start with, and thus are enough to drop the argument. Second, he only has three possible conclusions that can be drawn from this: (i) The Bible declares who The Comforter is, thus his position is false from the start. (ii) The Bible is corrupt, thus there’s no reason to take any conclusions from the Bible; thus his original position is also false. (iii) His original assumption that the Bible is uncorrupted is dropped, and then he must prove why we can take what he quotes as trustworthy and what he rejects (John 14) as false. Until he identifies which route he chooses to go, there is no reason to consider his argument as it is invalid.

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1. shajahanahmed - January 23, 2010

John 16:13 says that the Comforter shall guide mankind into ALL truth. And the ONLY person who has fulfilled this prophesy is Muhammad (pbuh), and the Qur’an is evidence to this fact. No one else can fit the title better that Muhmmad (pbuh). Now if you don’t believe in the Qur’an then that’s your problem, the Qur’an is evidence whether you believe or not. The Qur’an gives solutions to all the problems of mankind, the solutions might not go down well but they are provided in the Qur’an.

As I have said countless number of times, I KNOW John 14:26 says the comforter is the Holy Ghost, but that is not proof rather it is a statement in favour of John 16:7-14. The way to prove John 16:7-14 is referring to the Holy Ghost, is by answering the following questions:
1. Has the Holy Ghost fulfilled what was promised in John 16:7-14?
2. If yes then how?

For the argument’s sake (as you say) I will agree for now, that the Bible isn’t flawed (corrupted). Now all that that is left for you to prove is that John 16:7-14 is referring to the Holy Ghost. The way to prove this is by answering the following questions:

(Please answer the questions rather than JUST quoting John 14:26)

1) Why did Jesus (pbuh) pray for the Comforter (Holy Ghost) to come (John 14:16) if it was already present at the time (as we find evidence in Luke 1:41, John 20:21-22 & John 14:17)?

2) The Comforter (Holy Ghost) was at hand before Jesus’ (pbuh) departure regardless of if it was in indwelling or surrounding presence (according to Luke 1:41, John 20:21-22 & John 14:17). If you agree with this then you are contradicting John 16:7 which indicates that the Comforter was not present before the departure of Jesus (pbuh). If you think that you are not contradicting John 16:7, then you must explain: why did Jesus (pbuh) need to depart in order to send the Comforter if it was already present at the time (according to Luke 1:41, John 20:21-22 & John 14:17)?

3) If Jesus (pbuh) was the FIRST Comforter and AFTER him came the SECOND Comforter (as prophesised in John 14:16) which you say is the Holy Ghost. Then what about the Holy Ghost which you say was present BERFORE Jesus’ (pbuh) departure?

4) Has the Comforter (Holy Ghost) fulfilled what was promised in John 16:7-14? If yes then how?

Now that I have agreed with you (for arguments sake) that the Bible isn’t corrupted, you have no excuse not to answer the above questions. You as “professional students” must be able to provide a logical answer to these questions.

2. theconfessors - January 24, 2010

“the Qur’an is evidence whether you believe or not.”

This begs the question and is also circular; the Qur’an proves itself by using itself. Both are fallacies, this means we can reject your conclusion. We urge you to look up logical fallacies, this is a key when in deliberations, especially with those who do not believe as you do.

“As I have said countless number of times, I KNOW John 14:26 says the comforter is the Holy Ghost, but that is not proof rather it is a statement in favour of John 16:7-14. The way to prove John 16:7-14 is referring to the Holy Ghost, is by answering the following questions:
1. Has the Holy Ghost fulfilled what was promised in John 16:7-14?
2. If yes then how?”

That isn’t the way though; the way is to see who John is identifying as The Comforter is to see what he calls The Comforter, and he does so in John 14. If you do not accept this conclusion, fine, but then there is no reason for you to assume that there is even such a thing as The Comforter that John talks about because John has now become unreliable in your position, regardless of whether Muhammad is the true final, last prophet, and prophet for all mankind.

“For the argument’s sake (as you say) I will agree for now, that the Bible isn’t flawed (corrupted). Now all that that is left for you to prove is that John 16:7-14 is referring to the Holy Ghost.”

If the Bible isn’t flawed or corrupted, as you’ve granted , then John 14:26 is acceptable proof as to whom The Comforter is.

Here is an argument we formulated to hopefully help put your position in perspective:

If we take the Bible as 100% truth:

(1) The Bible is 100% true.

(2) John 14:26 says “26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”

(3) If the Bible is 100% true and the Bible says that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, then the Comforter is the Holy
Spirit.

(4) Therefore, the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.

If we take the Bible as being corrupted and flawed:

(1) The Bible is not 100% true.

(2) The Bible references Mohammad as the Comforter.

(3) If the Bible is not 100% true and the Bible references Mohammad as the Comforter, there is no reason to believe Mohammad really is the Comforter.

(4) Therefore, there is no reason to believe Mohammad really is the Comforter (or that there is any such thing as a Comforter).

3. shajahanahmed - January 24, 2010

John 14:26:

John 16:7-14 gives us a list things which the Comforter will fulfil. And by this one can measure to see who the actual Comforter is. If the Holy Ghost is the Comforter (John 14:26) then please show me how the Holy Ghost has fulfilled everything promised in John 16:7-14. As I have said before: John 14:26 does say the comforter is the Holy Ghost, but that is not proof rather it is a statement in favour of John 16:7-14. The way to prove John 16:7-14 is referring to the Holy Ghost, is by answering the following questions:
1. Has the Holy Ghost fulfilled what was promised in John 16:7-14?
2. If yes then how?
If the Holy Ghost has not fulfilled anything promised in John 16:7-14, then John 14:26 does not really stand up to scrutiny.

My questions:

You have NOT answered my questions. Even if the Bible is flawless and as you say the Comforter is the Holy Ghost (John 14:26), my points still need to be answered. This is because the questions are based around the idea of the Comforter being the Holy Ghost. For the argument’s sake (as you say) I will agree for now, that the Bible isn’t flawed (corrupted). Now all that that is left for you to prove is that John 16:7-14 is referring to the Holy Ghost. The way to prove this is by answering the following questions:

(Please answer the questions rather than JUST quoting John 14:26)

1) Why did Jesus (pbuh) pray for the Comforter (Holy Ghost) to come (John 14:16) if it was already present at the time (as we find evidence in Luke 1:41, John 20:21-22 & John 14:17)?

2) The Comforter (Holy Ghost) was at hand before Jesus’ (pbuh) departure regardless of if it was in indwelling or surrounding presence (according to Luke 1:41, John 20:21-22 & John 14:17). If you agree with this then you are contradicting John 16:7 which indicates that the Comforter was not present before the departure of Jesus (pbuh). If you think that you are not contradicting John 16:7, then you must explain: why did Jesus (pbuh) need to depart in order to send the Comforter if it was already present at the time (according to Luke 1:41, John 20:21-22 & John 14:17)?

3) If Jesus (pbuh) was the FIRST Comforter and AFTER him came the SECOND Comforter (as prophesised in John 14:16) which you say is the Holy Ghost. Then what about the Holy Ghost which you say was present BEFORE Jesus’ (pbuh) departure?

4) Has the Comforter (Holy Ghost) fulfilled what was promised in John 16:7-14? If yes then how?

Now that I have agreed with you (for arguments sake) that the Bible isn’t corrupted, you have no excuse not to answer the above questions. If you are true in what you say, you as “professional students” must be able to provide a logical answer to the above questions.

The Qur’an:

The Qur’an does not use itself to prove itself; the Qur’an uses science and logic to prove to mankind that itself to be the word of Allah.

The Qur’an gives all the solutions to mankind’s problems. Problems such as: Alcohol, Racism, Surplus of women and many more. The Qur’an also talks about much scientific truth, which have not yet been contradicted by leading scientists. (One does not have to be a Muslim to realise these things)

The Qur’an even challenges mankind to produce a chapter like it, because if man wrote the Qur’an then obviously it is possible for man to produce another one like it (Qur’an 10:38). But until this day no one has been able to match the Qur’an’s eloquence and style of language. The Qur’an also challenges us to find any discrepancy if we believe it to be from other than Allah (Qur’an 4:82).

4. theconfessors - January 24, 2010

If you grant the Bible as flawless and uncorrupted; John 14 can be accepted as a true statement. If John 14 can be accepted as a true statement, regarding the subject of the Holy Spirit and The Comforter, why would we need to continue to prove this?

We don’t need to answer your questions because they are obviously false, if we regard the Bible as flawless and uncorrupted as you have now granted. The lapse in understanding of what is being stated in these verses would be on your part not ours. You cannot get any clearer than saying “The Comforter is the Holy Spirit.” As stated many times before, if you play the “obviously we then can’t take the Bible as being flawless anymore” card, then you’ll have to prove why we can take your overall conclusion regarding John 16, since it is your argument under the microscope, not biblical inerrancey.

The Qur’an:

1) Prove the Qur’an is correct scientifically, don’t just say it. If you set out to make this case, we’d prefer cited material from scientists across the board over linked youtube videos.

2) The Bible gives answers to alcohol, racism, women, and much more.

3) To test from the Qur’an’s eloquence and style of language doesn’t test its truthfulness. Whose to judge the test? All men? If this is the case then the test is subjective, because not all men hold the words to be eloquent and beautifully written. If its only for those who speak classical Arabic, the test is worthless to those who don’t, as many people outside the Islamic world cannot speak classical Arabic.

5. shajahanahmed - January 24, 2010

If John 14:26 is true then ANSWER the questions posed. What are you afraid of? What is the point of debating if you are going to just avoid my questions and runaway like this?

It is absurd to say that questions can be false; the answers to the questions may be false but never are the questions false. Questions always have answers and I am asking you to give me the right answers if you are true.

John 16:7-14 gives us a list things which the Comforter will fulfil. And by this one can measure to see who the actual Comforter is. If the Holy Ghost is the Comforter (John 14:26) then please show me how the Holy Ghost has fulfilled everything promised in John 16:7-14. If the Holy Ghost has not fulfilled anything promised in John 16:7-14, then John 14:26 does not really stand up to scrutiny.

6. theconfessors - January 25, 2010

The reason why we’re not answering the questions is because whether or not The Holy Spirit lived up to the criteria you have established, would not in anyway validate your case. In other words it would be a mute point, and unless it was more for your personal learning purposes rather than some sort of attempt to fortify your argument, it would be a waste of everyone’s time.

Your questions would only be meaningful if we took this from a “the Bible is partially flawed” point of view. However, the problem with this view has also been shown numerous times; there would be no reason to accept your argument, unless you showed that John 16 was reliable and John 14 wasn’t.

So we’ll repeat ourselves here, the questions are meaningless to your cause from a “the Bible is flawless” point of view. John 14 is flawless and tells us who The Comforter is. Your questions could only be used if you came at us from the “Bible contains flaws” point of view. But as already stated, you would then need to prove John 16 as reliable and John 14 as not reliable, before we would even have to accept your argument and conclusion. If you want to completely dismiss your argument, realizing it is obtainable, you could do so and then we’ll answer the questions. So unless you dismiss the argument, or establish John 16’s reliability while rejecting John 14’s, there is no reason to answer your questions.

So we’re not running away, we just realize the questions are meaningless for your case at this juncture.

7. shajahanahmed - January 29, 2010

First you told me that MY QUESTIONS ARE FALSE and now I am told that MY QUESTIONS DO NOT VALIDATE MY CASE, what next? Are these the best excuses you can come up with? You are professional students as you say, so please act like one.

If you cannot answer my questions then it proves that the Bible is contradicting left, right and centre on the idea of the Comforter being the Holy Ghost (from you and your Bible’s point of view).

If you cannot answer the questions then please say so, I will not force you.

8. theconfessors - January 30, 2010

The questions are both false and they don’t validate your case. As stated numerous times; if John is mistaken in chapter 14, why should you take and build a case off of what he said in chapter 16 without some sort of evidence to accept it? That’s just bad position building on your end. Also we stated numerous times, your four points cannot make your case until you validate that John 14 is false while John 16 is true. This has not been done. As they are, your four point argument can only show John is inconsistent at best; however your conclusion isn’t “John or the Bible is inconsistent,” it is “John 16 is Muhammad.” Since your argument is based from a claim made out of the Bible and if you conclude the Bible is corrupted, there is no reason for your claim to be taken seriously; whether we believe the Bible to be corrupted or not.

Once again we’d prefer to talk to you about this via voice, msn chat, yahoo chat, something just name it. Perhaps explaining this in person would make things easier to understand.

9. shajahanahmed - January 30, 2010

I have already proven that John 16:7-14 can apply to no one else better than Muhammad (pbuh). It is up to you to show me that John 16:7-14 fits the Holy Ghost better than Muhammad (pbuh) which you have not been successful as yet.

I have already granted the Bible to be flawless for the argument’s sake. This meaning every verse in the Bible is true including John 14:26 (of course I don’t believe this but it’s true for sake of argument). Now keeping this in mind, any logical minded person will notice that my four questions (as seen below) are still valid. Why? Because they are based around the idea of the Comforter being the Holy Ghost in the Bible.

Lets be honest, the reason why you are so reluctant to give answers to the questions I have posed is because to do have any answers. To say that my questions are not valid because of John 14:26 is a minor excuse to avoid my question. If the Holy Ghost hasn’t fulfilled anything promised in John 16:7-14, then John 14:26 doesn’t stand up to scrutiny (even from your point of view).

I must say that I find hard to believe that you are professional students studying religion. Sometimes it seems that you lack the understanding of the Basic English language. I have said countless number of times that the questions are based on the idea of the Holy Ghost being the Comforter in the Bible, therefore making the questions (as seen below) still valid. Anybody with any sense of logic will understand this, yet you seem to have a problem or are just afraid to answer?

If we are going to debate online via voice chat then I suggest we debate a fresh new topic. If we debate this topic then we are just going to repeat ourselves all over again. But if you will answer the questions that I have recently posed over online via voice chat then I have no problem.

The questions:

1) Why did Jesus (pbuh) pray for the Comforter (Holy Ghost) to come (John 14:16) if it was already present at the time (as we find evidence in Luke 1:41, John 20:21-22 & John 14:17)?

2) The Comforter (Holy Ghost) was at hand before Jesus’ (pbuh) departure regardless of if it was in indwelling or surrounding presence (according to Luke 1:41, John 20:21-22 & John 14:17). If you agree with this then you are contradicting John 16:7 which indicates that the Comforter was not present before the departure of Jesus (pbuh). If you think that you are not contradicting John 16:7, then you must explain: why did Jesus (pbuh) need to depart in order to send the Comforter if it was already present at the time (according to Luke 1:41, John 20:21-22 & John 14:17)?

3) If Jesus (pbuh) was the FIRST Comforter and AFTER him came the SECOND Comforter (as prophesised in John 14:16) which you say is the Holy Ghost. Then what about the Holy Ghost which you say was present BERFORE Jesus’ (pbuh) departure?

4) Has the Comforter (Holy Ghost) fulfilled what was promised in John 16:7-14? If yes then how?

I have agreed with you (for arguments sake) that the Bible isn’t corrupted, you have no excuse not to answer the above questions. You as “professional students” must be able to provide a logical answer to these questions.

10. theconfessors - January 30, 2010

Actually we have answered your questions. If you remember many responses ago, we stated 1) John acknowledges the Holy Spirit as already being there in John 14, thus no contradiction between Luke and John. 2) The Holy Spirit is the ultimate guide in Christian understanding, as one cannot come to true relationship with God without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 3) We’ve also shown that in Christian understanding, how the Holy Spirit interacts with believers is what differs. Before the Holy Spirit was around them and indwelled them temporarily at various moments such as prophecy and certain feats like Sampson’s strength. The new understanding is that the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, thus allowing them to desire the true God revealed through Christ. Christians are indwelled but are not filled unless they are prophetically speaking or any other instances God is empowering a believer. Therefore we have answered your questions.

11. shajahanahmed - February 1, 2010

“Actually we have answered your questions. If you remember many responses ago, we stated: 1) John acknowledges the Holy Spirit as already being there in John 14, thus no contradiction between Luke and John. 2) The Holy Spirit is the ultimate guide in Christian understanding, as one cannot come to true relationship with God without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 3) We’ve also shown that in Christian understanding, how the Holy Spirit interacts with believers is what differs.”

In what way does the above answer my questions? Such a reply makes s me question your sense of logic and reading ability. The above in no way answers my questions and you don’t have to be a scholar or a professional to realise this. It seems like you cannot give me any answers to the questions that I have posed. So if you could, I would like you to refer me to one of your professors or teachers.

12. theconfessors - February 1, 2010

We’ve answered your questions perfectly…The problem is you don’t want to develop and understand what John is saying here, because you don’t give a hoot about understanding, just about trying to prove it wrong. You will notice, that our answers really haven’t changed much, other than they’ll be more organized to align with the specific numbers they’re addressing.

1) Jesus prays for the Holy Spirit to “come” yet we know John acknowledges that the Holy Spirit is there already. We also know that John gives a new sense of what the Holy Spirit will do, i.e. indwell and not just be around. Taking the text into consideration, it’s clear Jesus is praying for the Holy Spirit to begin its new ministry of indwelling the believer.

2) It is not indicating the Holy Spirit isn’t there. If John has already stated the Holy Spirit is there and he gives an understanding of what will happen when the Holy Spirit “comes,” how could you even be under the impression that he’s indicating that the Holy Spirit isn’t there? If you take John at his word here, but ignore it earlier when he tells us the Comforter is already here and just living around you, you will always chop up the Bible and butcher it. If we take the whole piece, it’s saying that Jesus must go if the Holy Spirit to apply the atonement to the believers he will indwell.

3) The Holy Spirit becomes the second comforter after Jesus leaves because he is to take up a new role of indwelling believers and guiding those who do not believe to belief. Prior to that, his presence was merely around everyone and would only infill a believer (typically a Hebrew) during certain times of prophecy, praise, or empowerment. So now the Holy Spirit, as stated numerous times already, not only is just “around” or “infills believers” for certain moments, but also “indwells” believers, marking them saved under the atonement of Christ for the Father (1 Peter 1:2 ” Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”)

4) The Holy Spirit guides men to belief in God, convicts them of their sin, and one can only believe in the real Christ through the Holy Spirit….

If you notice, the answers really did not change much from what we’ve said before. A consideration you need to take, if you believe John is contradicting himself literally within the same subject and within a couple chapters of each other, how on earth could you honestly take a conclusion in John as a truth statement and feel good about that?

13. theconfessors - February 1, 2010

We’d also like to add that, you realize the Holy Spirit is God? So what you’ve essentially asked looks like this: How is God a guide in truth and righteousness for mankind?

14. Shajahan Ahmed - February 7, 2010

It is true that your answers haven’t changed much, but that doesn’t make your answers right. Anyway I thougt you said my questions were “false”? Just shows how well you “understand”.

A response to your answers:

1) If Jesus (pbuh) prayed for the Holy Ghost to come then that obviously means that it wasn’t present at the time. This is simple basic knowledge. You don’t pray for something you already have, that is illogical.

In John 14:16 it is 100% clear that Jesus (pbuh) was praying for another Comforter, not for the Holy Spirit to begin its new ministry of indwelling the believer. You must have been reading the Bible up side down.

2) In John 16:7 Jesus (pbuh) said that if he departs then he will send the Comforter, which definitely means the Comforter was not present at the time. When something is being sent to you it means you haven’t received it yet. This is clear simple English. The verse doesn’t say that if Jesus (pbuh) departs then the Holy Spirit to apply the atonement to the believers he will indwell. What you are doing is adding words which are not there in the text. If the Bible tells us in one place that the Holy Ghost was present before Jesus’ (pbuh) departure and in another place the complete opposite (John 16:7), then this means that there is a clear contradiction regarding the Holy Ghost in the Bible.

3) All you explained to me is about the presence of the Holy Ghost which is beside the point.

The second Comforter (which is supposed to be the Holy Ghost) came after the first Comforter: Jesus (pbuh) (as you say, correct me if I’m wrong). So what about the Holy Ghost which was present before Jesus’ departure? Because we know Jesus (pbuh) prayed of ANOTHER Comforter to come after his departure. ‘Another’ means ‘a different one’ or ‘not the same one’. Does this mean you believe in two Holy Ghosts?

4) According to the Bible the Holy Ghost is not only meant to guide men to belief in God but also guide mankind to ALL truth.

John 16:13 tells us that the Comforter shall guide us into ALL truth. Do you know what ‘all’ means? ‘All’ means ‘everything’. Please give me one new thing that Holy Ghost has shown you Christians that Jesus (pbuh) hasn’t already shown? What does your Holy Ghost say about the surplus of women in the world, problem of alcohol or the problem of incest? 2000 years have gone by and still no guidance from the Holy Ghost. Doesn’t the world have enough problems?

What I am trying to point out is that if the Comforter in the Bible is referring to the Holy Ghost then there are many contradictions (the above as example). On the other hand if the Comforter is being referred to Muhammad (pbuh) the last and final Prophet of Allah (swt), then there is no contradiction.

Correct me if I am wrong but you’re saying the Comforter is referring to the Holy Ghost which is God. This just adds to the question: what new thing has God shown you Christians that Jesus (pbuh) hasn’t already shown? Because John 16:13 tells us that the Comforter (which is supposed to be referring to the Holy Ghost which is God) shall guide us into ALL truth.

15. theconfessors - February 11, 2010

“Anyway I thougt you said my questions were “false”? Just shows how well you ‘understand’.”

Your questions are false in that they don’t lead to the Comforter being Muhammad even if they could not be answered.

“1) If Jesus (pbuh) prayed for the Holy Ghost to come then that obviously means that it wasn’t present at the time. This is simple basic knowledge. You don’t pray for something you already have, that is illogical.”

It isn’t illogical…the Holy Spirit isn’t the Comforter at this point, he merely lives around them. If you take John 14:16, then take John 14:17 where he tells them you already know this comforter. What you are doing is picking and choosing Scripture to beef up your position, but disregarding the Scripture that tells us exactly what’s going on here.

“2) In John 16:7 Jesus (pbuh) said that if he departs then he will send the Comforter, which definitely means the Comforter was not present at the time. When something is being sent to you it means you haven’t received it yet. This is clear simple English.”

In clear simple English, John already acknowledges that the Holy Spirit is already there…so obviously John isn’t referring to the sort of “coming” you are thinking. John does tell us that the Holy Spirit will be inside the believer and this is something new, so just maybe John is referring to a “coming” inside the believer?

“3) Does this mean you believe in two Holy Ghosts?”

No we don’t, but we believe the Holy Spirit became the Comforter after Christ’s departure in Acts 1. However, in your interpretation of the text, it seems you have to believe there were three comforters (John 14 The Holy Spirit, Jesus, John 16 Muhammad). Or you reject 14:17, and then we’re back to, how can you make a claim from John then, if he has made errors about the Comforter?

“4) According to the Bible the Holy Ghost is not only meant to guide men to belief in God but also guide mankind to ALL truth.”

“All” means the whole of a particular thing, amount, group, or area. In other words, if we say all the books, this does not mean necessarily mean all the books of the universe. So just because it says “all truth,” this may not necessarily mean literally all truth in every possible subject, if this isn’t the context. It seems pretty obvious that Jesus isn’t talking about every single truth, just what he plans on revealing to them, as indicated in verse 12 (Jesus has more to say but they cannot bear it). So to assume this is referring to any subject outside of what Jesus planned to reveal to them or what he was talking about in this section, would be taking 13 out of its context.

The Holy Spirit guides men to salvation, thus he reveals to men Christ’s lordship, that is the “truth” revealed by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible has already covered alcohol use, incest, and depending on how you were to define surplus of women, it may have that covered. So what do you mean by surplus of women?

“On the other hand if the Comforter is being referred to Muhammad (pbuh) the last and final Prophet of Allah (swt), then there is no contradiction.”

If you think Muhammad fits the Comforters picture, you need to go back and reread the entire section, because unless Muhammad cannot be seen, lived with the disciples, the disciples knew him, and then he lived inside the disciples, Muhammad could not be the Comforter as described by John.

Did Muhammad ever claim to be the Spirit of Truth or The Comforter?

16. Shajahan Ahmed - February 17, 2010

It is absurd to say that questions can be false; the answers to the questions may be false but never are the questions false. Questions always have answers and I am asking you to give me the right answers if you are true.

1) “It isn’t illogical…the Holy Spirit isn’t the Comforter at this point, he merely lives around them. If you take John 14:16, then take John 14:17 where he tells them you already know this comforter. What you are doing is picking and choosing Scripture to beef up your position, but disregarding the Scripture that tells us exactly what’s going on here.”

Reply: so what you are telling is that the Holy Ghost becomes the Comforter. Then why is it in John 16:7 that Jesus (pbuh) has to depart to SEND the Comforter (“if I depart, I will send him unto you”)? The word ‘send’ means ‘non-received’. The “future” Comforter (Holy Ghost) was already present. So who was Jesus (pbuh) going to send?

2) “In clear simple English, John already acknowledges that the Holy Spirit is already there…so obviously John isn’t referring to the sort of “coming” you are thinking. John does tell us that the Holy Spirit will be inside the believer and this is something new, so just maybe John is referring to a “coming” inside the believer?”

Reply: Jesus (pbuh) said: if he departs, he will SEND the Comforter (John 16:7). This is very clear English. The verse means when Jesus (pbuh) departs earth and goes up into heaven, he will SEND the Comforter to earth. Send means: to cause somebody or something to be moved to another place. The “future” Comforter (Holy Ghost) was already present. So who was Jesus (pbuh) going to send?

You said: “John isn’t referring to the sort of “coming” you are thinking”. What you are doing here is adding your own interpretation to fit your own belief. If John states that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost (John 14:26) and that the Holy Ghost was already present at the time of Jesus (pbuh), then John 16:7 should be in complete agreement with this. No one should have to assume or add their interpretation to make it not seem like a contradiction. The word ‘coming’ means: non-present, non-arrived, non-available…etc. If Jesus (pbuh) prayed for the Holy Ghost to come then that obviously means that it wasn’t present at the time. Please explain according to the text, not according to your understanding.

3) “No we don’t, but we believe the Holy Spirit became the Comforter after Christ’s departure in Acts 1. However, in your interpretation of the text, it seems you have to believe there were three comforters (John 14 The Holy Spirit, Jesus, John 16 Muhammad). Or you reject 14:17, and then we’re back to, how can you make a claim from John then, if he has made errors about the Comforter?”

Reply: you said: “However, in your interpretation of the text, it seems you have to believe there were three comforters (John 14 The Holy Spirit, Jesus, John 16 Muhammad)”. Through out the whole debate I have been showing that the Holy Ghost cannot be a Comforter, now how does that mean I believe the Holy Ghost is a Comforter? I believe that Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) can be Comforters, no problem.

You said: “Or you reject 14:17, and then we’re back to, how can you make a claim from John then, if he has made errors about the Comforter?” I reject overall the entire Bible. But I have been arguing from your Christian point of view (regardless of what I believe about the Bible). You believe the Bible is the full word of God. If you say John 14:17 is wrong then I agree, thumbs up (I already reject the entire Bible). Now if you say: “how can you make a claim from John then, if he has made errors about the Comforter?” all that proves is that the Bible is unreliable due to corruption. I agree with this but do you?

4) ““All” means the whole of a particular thing, amount, group, or area. In other words, if we say all the books, this does not mean necessarily mean all the books of the universe. So just because it says “all truth,” this may not necessarily mean literally all truth in every possible subject, if this isn’t the context. It seems pretty obvious that Jesus isn’t talking about every single truth, just what he plans on revealing to them, as indicated in verse 12 (Jesus has more to say but they cannot bear it). So to assume this is referring to any subject outside of what Jesus planned to reveal to them or what he was talking about in this section, would be taking 13 out of its context.

The Holy Spirit guides men to salvation, thus he reveals to men Christ’s lordship, that is the “truth” revealed by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible has already covered alcohol use, incest, and depending on how you were to define surplus of women, it may have that covered. So the question is, what do you mean by surplus of women?”

Reply: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:12-23). From this passage we can safely understand that the Comforter was supposed to finish what Jesus (pbuh) started. Jesus (pbuh) was meant to guide mankind into all truth right? By ‘all’ I mean literally ALL. But Jesus (pbuh) was not able to complete this mission (guiding mankind into all truth), so he said the Comforter will complete this mission. If this mission is not completed then it means that Christianity is an incomplete religion. This is because Jesus (pbuh) obviously didn’t guide mankind into all truth (according to John 16:12).

You said: “The Bible has already covered alcohol use, incest, and depending on how you were to define surplus of women, it may have that covered. So the question is, what do you mean by surplus of women?”

Alcohol: Jesus (pbuh) turns water into wine according the Bible. Incest: the Old Testament seems to be a specialist in teaching pornography and incest. Surplus of women: in many countries today there seem to be more women then men. In certain countries, if everyman got a women for himself, there would be still so many more women left to get married.

Now if you’re saying that the Comforter (assuming to be the Holy Ghost) was only meant for the immediate disciples of Jesus (pbuh) then it still begs the question: what new things has the Holy Ghost taught the disciples which Jesus (pbuh) hasn’t taught already? This is a prophesy promised in John 16:13, if this is not fulfilled then it means either you are wrong, Jesus (pbuh) is wrong or the Bible is wrong.

Does the passage say that Jesus (pbuh) was only addressing the disciples? According to Christians, Christianity was meant for the entire world. So why was the Holy Ghost only meant for the disciples?

The teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) were already dwelling with and in the disciples through the teachings of Jesus (pbuh). This is because the fundamental messages of Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) were one and the same (monotheism). Of course Muhammad (pbuh) could not have been seen at the time of Jesus (pbuh), because Muhammad (pbuh) wasn’t present at the time.

Muhammad (pbuh) claimed to be a prophet sent by God. Jesus who you address to be a comforter (pbuh) also claimed to be a prophet sent by God. In this sense Muhammad (pbuh) did claim to be the Comforter. Muhammad (pbuh) is the only person in history after Jesus (pbuh) who has clearly fulfilled what was promised of the Comforter in the Bible.

“Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.” (Qur’an 7:157)

17. theconfessors - February 17, 2010

“It is absurd to say that questions can be false…”

You assume your questions lead to Muhammad being the Comforter and they cannot. That is a leap in logic that begs the question. Individually your questions are great, but how you set them up, just begs the question, i.e. Questions aren’t being answered like I like them to, Muhammad is the Comforter.

Does John not already say the Holy Spirit is there?

If you have been arguing from a Christian point of view, you would accept the Comforter as the Holy Spirit like it says, and you would then, using that as a basis, try and figure out what is being said about the Comforter in chapters 16. Then you would come to understand, based upon the entire New Testament, the Holy Spirit could not indwell the believer until Christ took his seat in heaven. Thus, when this occurred, the Holy Spirit was “sent” inside the believer, where it did not dwell prior to Christ. When a person becomes a believer, one receives the Holy Spirit to indwell inside them. That would be a “sending” as the Holy Spirit in Christian belief is not in the unbeliever. So when one becomes a believer the Holy Spirit is “sent” by the Father and by the Son to dwell inside that new believer.

The Bible forbids drunkenness, incest, sex outside of marriage, and multiple wives. Jesus himself used the figures of Adam and Eve as a symbol for marriage, 1 man 1 woman. Not 4 wives like Islam, not 9 wives like Muhammad, 1 wife. Why the Bible contains graphic stories is quite simple, it captures the realities of this world does it not? Do people not rape, commit incest, commit polygamy, murder most gruesomely and the list could go on? The Bible captures this because it is reality. Also about the surplus of women, not true, the average sex ratio in the world is 1.01 men to 1 women.

As we’ve already stated, the truth the Holy Spirit delivers to the disciples is the message of Christ. At which point they did not understand, and if you’ve read the entire New Testament you would see that it did not click until Acts 2, when they receive the Holy Spirit and began professing that Christ is Lord. This isn’t just reserved for disciples, this is reserved for anyone who believes and calls on the name of the Lord for salvation, as continually seen in the New Testament. So the truth isn’t worldly knowledge, but a truth that Christ is Lord.

“The teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) were already dwelling with and in the disciples through the teachings of Jesus (pbuh)…”

Then it wasn’t Muhammad, it was God. Under Islamic view, did not Muhammad receive his message from Allah? Thus it was not his own message, and therefore it would make sense to say the Holy Spirit is the Comforter because the Holy Spirit is what empowers prophets, as it is the Holy Spirit of God himself.

“Muhammad (pbuh) claimed to be a prophet sent by God…”

This does not answer the question; did Muhammad ever claim himself to be the Comforter of John 14-16?

18. Shajahan Ahmed - February 22, 2010

The prophesies which were promised from the Comforter in the NT have already and only been fulfilled by Muhammad (pbuh). If you disagree then prove it to me, show me who has fulfilled these promises (John 16:7-14) better than Muhammad (pbuh)? All you been going on about is the indwelling of the Holy Ghost which is besides the argument.

Sending: to cause somebody or something to be moved or taken to another place. Jesus (pbuh) says that he will send the Comforter when he departs. From where: heaven. Jesus (pbuh) promised to send the Comforter from heaven after he departs. Now don’t tell me Jesus (pbuh) meant ‘indwelling’. John 16:7 could only apply to the Holy Ghost if it wasn’t at hand before Jesus’ (pbuh) departure.

From a Christian point of view, I am judging every text in the Bible as a whole. And I see that if John 16:7, John 14:16, John 20:22, Luke 1:41, John 14:17 and John 14:26 were all examined from a even handed point of view, it would soon be realised that there is a contradiction among these verses.

Abraham (pbuh) had two wives. There many other prophets who had multiple wives. But now apparently the NT/Jesus (pbuh) commands only one wife per man. Isn’t this abrogation? But Jesus (pbuh) apparently said: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:17-19)

In certain places of the world, males are out numbered by females: In USA, 4.2 million more women more than men. In Great Britain, 1 million females more than males. Germany, around 1.4 million females more than males. In Russia, there are around 10 million females more than males (My calculations might not be completely accurate but of some what similar). The catch is if every man found a wife for himself, then still there will be so many more women left without husbands in some parts of the worlds. For example: In USA, 4.2 million more women more than men, if every man in USA got a wife for himself then there will be still 4.2 million women who can’t get husbands. In this kind of situation, the women who have no husbands are left with only two options: 1) Marry a man who is already married. 2) Become public property. Those who are modest will choose the first option. But then again Christianity apparently tells us one wife per man.

Jesus (pbuh) is supposed to be the great grand son of incest: We read in the Bible: Genesis 38:15-30, Judah committed adultery (incest) with his own daughter in law named Tamar. As a result of this incident, Tamar had twins which were named Pharez and Zarah. Now Judah (the father of the twins) gets to become the great grandfather of Jesus (pbuh) according to the genealogy of Jesus (pbuh) in Matthew chapter 1. The question arises: what is the moral behind this story? What can a mother say to her child after telling this story? That it is ok to commit incest? If it is not then why did God allow Jesus (pbuh) to be born as a result of it? Because if Judah didn’t commit incest then he wouldn’t have begotten Pharez, then Pharez wouldn’t have begotten Esrom…and on and on. This is a question for the Christians to answer.

We read in 2nd Timothy 3:16 of the Bible: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
The Bible explains, all Scriptures revealed by God are gainful for:
• Doctrine (teach principle)
• Reproof (rebuke us for our errors)
• Correction (offer us alteration)
• Righteousness (guide us to the right path)
Under which heading of above does the story of incest between Judah and Tamar fit into? (Genesis 38:15-30)

If drunkenness is forbidden in Christianity then why did Jesus (pbuh) turn water into wine?

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:12-23). From this passage we can safely understand that the Comforter was supposed to finish what Jesus (pbuh) started. Jesus (pbuh) was meant to guide mankind into all truth right? By ‘all’ I mean literally ALL. But Jesus (pbuh) was not able to complete this mission (guiding mankind into all truth), so he said the Comforter will complete this mission. If this mission is not completed then it means that Christianity is an incomplete religion. This is because Jesus (pbuh) obviously didn’t guide mankind into all truth (according to John 16:12). So if you’re telling me “the truth isn’t worldly knowledge, but a truth that Christ is Lord” then that means Christianity is an incomplete religion because Jesus (pbuh) obviously didn’t teach mankind all worldly and heavenly truth before he departed.

The teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) were already dwelling with and in the disciples through the teachings of Jesus (pbuh). This is because the fundamental messages of Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) were one and the same (monotheism). Do you not agree that Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) both preached monotheism?

“This does not answer the question; did Muhammad ever claim himself to be the Comforter of John 14-16?” Reply: I could ask the same question, did Jesus (pbuh) claim to be a Comforter? Because you yourself claim that Jesus (pbuh) was a Comforter. If you don’t believe Jesus (pbuh) was a Comforter then you must explain John 14:16.
I never said Muhammad (pbuh) claimed to be the Comforter. What I said was that Muhammad (pbuh) is the only person in history who has fulfilled everything promised of the Comforter in the NT (not even the Holy Ghost).

“Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.” (Qur’an 7:157)

Question: do you regard the Holy Ghost as male, female or neither?

19. theconfessors - March 1, 2010

If there’s a contradiction within these Scriptures regarding the Comforter, John can no longer be taken at face value. Therefore you cannot push Muhammad is the Comforter until you’ve provided good reasons to take John at one verse yet reject John at another verse. So we’re back to square one anyways… Simply saying well Muhammad’s life or the Qur’an, this simply begs the question and is serious logical fallacy. You need to prove that John’s Comforter was literally Muhammad, not assume it.

Secondly, they don’t contradict, you’re just not reading the Scripture in context. Know who the Holy Spirit is, know what he does pre and post Jesus, know that the text is not written in English but Koine Greek, know what the entire section is saying, and then you’ll know that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. There is no point in continuing to discuss these specific Scripture verses with you until you’re willing to open your mind and not argue in circles. Everything you’ve brought up we’ve answered to only be asked another question. Several answers and new questions later and we’re back to answering questions we’ve answered before.

“Abraham (pbuh) had two wives. There many other prophets who had multiple wives. But now apparently the NT/Jesus (pbuh) commands only one wife per man…”

Where does God tell Abraham to have 2 wives? Or any of the other prophets in the Bible multiple wives for that matter? Just because they took multiple wives does not mean it was right.

“In certain places of the world, males are out numbered by females: In USA, 4.2 million more women more than men…”

The problem with these studies is the many factors that go into these numbers that you fail to take in, such as China limiting number of girls a family could have. Also note, the more female to male ratio doesn’t come into effect in the US, until around the 40-50year old range. Below this, there are actually more men than women, and annually there are more boys than girls born in the U.S. So to seriously consider this, you would have to do in-depth studies into which age groups this effects and the why? You’d also have to study each country in the world. What about the countries where the men outweigh the men? On top of this it is well known that on average, women out live men. So this is also going to skew the numbers quite a bit. In case you’re wondering, the world sex ratio is 101 men to 100 females. So actually the world average puts more men than women. A quick search on the Google bar to the CIA world fact book, Wikipedia, or another government atlas website from the U.S. will show that in most countries, the males outnumber females.

“Jesus (pbuh) is supposed to be the great grand son of incest…”

Jesus had also the blood of a non-Jew flowing through his veins (Ruth). The teaching one can gain from this, is that even when one does the opposite of what God desires for oneself; God can still work with that wrong action or through that person. Like we’ve stated before, just because it is in the Bible does not mean it is correct action…David’s adultery is in the Bible, so is the prophet Jonah’s disobedience, Abraham’s disobedience, and the list goes on. The Bible tells reality, that no man is perfect, not even the prophets of God. This should be refreshing for any person, when they come to realize that God will use you in spite of yourself.

“If drunkenness is forbidden in Christianity then why did Jesus (pbuh) turn water into wine?”

Drunkenness is forbidden, drinking of wine is not.

Do you regard Muhammad’s teaching as Muhammad’s teaching, or is it the work of the Spirit of God through Muhammad?

The Holy Spirit is often described with masculine terms. However, God is neither male nor female.

20. Shajahan Ahmed - April 9, 2010

As much as I am tempted to refute these points you have put forward, I will save my refutation for our online chat/debate if you are still willing to have one. Commenting like this is endless and I think you will agree that a live debate is more effective. Apologies for replying so late, what can I say… busy life, lol.

Please email me to set a time & date for an online chat/debate if you are still willing to have one.

21. Shajahan Ahmed - April 10, 2010

Oh, I forgot to mention…

You said: “Drunkenness is forbidden, drinking of wine is not”. Really?

“And be not drunk with WINE, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit.” (Ephesians 5:18)

“WINE is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” (Proverbs 20:1)

…you really haven’t read your Bible have you?


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